Xu-Fu Strategy vs. Cymre Brightblade

Before		After	Experience Gain
1	➜	13	5981
2	➜	13	6353
3	➜	14	6683
4	➜	14	6971
5	➜	14	7219
6	➜	15	7425
7	➜	15	7590
8	➜	16	7714
9	➜	16	7796
10	➜	17	7838
11	➜	17	7838
12	➜	18	7796
13	➜	19	7714
14	➜	19	7590
15	➜	20	7425
16	➜	20	7219
17	➜	21	6971
18	➜	22	6683
19	➜	22	6353
20	➜	23	5981
21	➜	23	5569
22	➜	24	5115
23	➜	25	3900
24	➜	25	1980

Strategy added by Raindawn

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	Creator
Any Level 1+ Pet	Remte	In this vast jungle, a low-hanging fruit isn't entirely unexpected. While Immolation is much, much better for backline healing, I've found out Flamethrower adds a little more stability, as dropping a DoT later means it smoothes out the Burn's RNG. You can use Immolation first cast only, but you will risk Gyrexle healing out because Failsafe didn't trigger. I think it has something to do with different backline/weather abilities affecting the Gyrexle's health in a way that causes them to use Repair late/early enough. Managed to succeed with a crit of Rot. (A forfeit is for continued testing.)	Breed Level 1+ Script	2	5.0	N/A	14	118 1:58	14
Any Level 1+ Pet	Mutanis	Time: 01:55 (14-15 rounds) If you don't have Baa'l then try this strategy Inland Croaker breed recommendation: HH > HP > BB > PP/PS	Level 1+ Script	2	4.9	N/A	61	115 1:55	14-15
Any Level 1+ Pet Any Level 1+ Pet	Bumrusher	Script thanks to ZoeyStarwind	Level 1+ Script	2	4.6	N/A	60	300 5:00	36+
Any Level 1+ Pet	Moony	I found this strategy on Wowhead, posted by Kalkoh. Easy and fast. It did not fail yet. Other breeds may work as well, I haven't tested them yet.	Level 1+ Script	2	4.5	N/A	79	110 1:50	14
Any Level 1+ Pet	Mutanis	Time: 01:55 (15 rounds)	Level 1+ Script	2	4.4	N/A	13	130 2:10	15
Any Level 2+ Pet			Level 2+ Script	2	4.1	N/A	34	138 2:18	16
Any Level 3+ Pet	OrionAssante		RNG Level 3+ Script	2	3.4	N/A	40	205 3:25	25+
Any Level 10+ Pet	Cymre	Original video by Cymre Script thanks to Shaka	Shop Level 10+ Script	2	3.7	N/A	7	187 3:07	23+
Any Level 1+ Pet	darkcube#1660	Original strategy comes from Sp1naker on Wowhead Note if using an undead pet the minimum health must be 176. You can set the minimum health in Rematch to 118 and expected damage type to critter to account for this.	Breed RNG Level 1+ Script	2	3.3	N/A	5	190 3:10	23
Any Level 1+ Pet	Remte	Thanks to Wazzak for some log samples. As usual, if WBL crits, this is over. :( Don't worry about your own RNG, and as the Idol of Decay is slower it can be swapped out even as it went into Damned. P/S and P/P imps should work too, but a custom judgment regarding throwing in Immolation again is required around its expiration.	Breed Level 1+ Script	2	0.0	N/A	1	110 1:50	14
Any Level 3+ Pet	Corgi	This is a reliable strategy posted by Helbrecht of Eldrethalas on the US forums, Drrum on her blog, and Rythian on Wowhead, but the actual origin remains obscured at the moment of publication. Please comment with any details you might share. I have also done this fight multiple times with Darkflame instead of Early Advantage. See which one you prefer. Your Level Pet has to be able to take a hit from Swarm of Flies (around 117 points). There is no backline damage during this fight.	Breed Level 3+	2	0.0	N/A	1	210 3:30	25+
Any Level 1+ Pet	DragonsAfterDark		Level 1+ Script	2	5.0	N/A	4	208 3:28	29-30
Any Level 1+ Pet	Quintette	I found this fairly recent strat on Wowhead https://www.wowhead.com/npc=83837/cymre-brightblade#comments, with thanks to creator daaani. It looks similar to another strat posted here, but this one worked perfectly for me. NOTE: this only seemed to work with the P/P breed Crab. Had no success with the H/H breed.	Breed Level 1+ Unobtainable	2	5.0	N/A	2	195 3:15	21
	DangerBook#11885	I only tried this twice, it worked 2nd time and first time I jumped the gun and foolishly swapped to Sunfire Kalari while my Beetle was still alive. Considering how well the pets were doing I expect them to win more than half the time.	RNG	2	5.0	N/A	0	180 3:00	20+
Any Level 1+ Pet	Epytropos	Borrowed from one of Xu-Fu's options for An Awfully Big Adventure, modified for lvl pet.	Level 1+ Script	2	1.0	N/A	1	340 5:40	38+
Any Level 6+ Pet	HSTrader#1894	This strategy has worked for me since Broken Isles and never failed. You can do this with one Puddle Terror and 2 lvling pets using Sunlight and Natures Ward but it takes a lot longer to do'	Level 6+	2	0.0	N/A	0	240 4:00	25+
Any Level 1+ Pet	Mutanis	~21 rounds Breed recommendation Slot 2: H/S >> S/B >> S/S, P/S	Breed Level 1+ Script	2	0.0	N/A	0	180 3:00	21
	Raindawn	I'd like to start off by saying that the suggested strategy using Puddle Terror is by far the safest strategy out there, i was able to solo it with just Sunlight/Nature's Ward, killing off the back line entirely during the first encounter. And considering that the pet is very cheap on AH, there's hardly any excuse not to use that strategy. But for this one, i was basically messing around to bring back a little bit of a challenge, while also playing it safe. This strategy is not THE strategy by any means, it's just a variation of the known working tropes.	RNG	2	0.0	N/A	0	171 2:51	22+
	Buttercup#1759	extremely consistent; can use any dragonkin w/ Scorched Earth & Breath in place of Wild Crimson Hatchling.		2	1.0	N/A	0	145 2:25	16+

Breed	Health	Power	Speed
HH	1725	276	244

Breed	Health	Power	Speed
PP	1441	346	231

Breed	Health	Power	Speed
HH	1806	260	244
HP	1627	289	244
HS	1627	260	273

Breed	Health	Power	Speed
PB	1384	305	273

Breed	Health	Power	Speed
BB	1481	276	276

Strategy 18 of 19
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Reset Filters

These options reset all other sorting filters.

Any Level 1+ Pet

Remte

In this vast jungle, a low-hanging fruit isn't entirely unexpected.

While Immolation is much, much better for backline healing, I've found out Flamethrower adds a little more stability, as dropping a DoT later means it smoothes out the Burn's RNG. You can use Immolation first cast only, but you will risk Gyrexle healing out because Failsafe didn't trigger. I think it has something to do with different backline/weather abilities affecting the Gyrexle's health in a way that causes them to use Repair late/early enough.

Managed to succeed with a crit of Rot. (A forfeit is for continued testing.)

Breed
Level 1+
Script
2 5.0 N/A 14 118
1:58
14

Any Level 1+ Pet

Mutanis

Time: 01:55 (14-15 rounds)

If you don't have Baa'l then try this strategy

Inland Croaker breed recommendation:
HH > HP > BB > PP/PS

Level 1+
Script
2 4.9 N/A 61 115
1:55
14-15

Any Level 1+ Pet

Any Level 1+ Pet

Bumrusher

Script thanks to ZoeyStarwind

Level 1+
Script
2 4.6 N/A 60 300
5:00
36+

Any Level 1+ Pet

Moony

I found this strategy on Wowhead, posted by Kalkoh. Easy and fast. It did not fail yet.
Other breeds may work as well, I haven't tested them yet.

Level 1+
Script
2 4.5 N/A 79 110
1:50
14

Any Level 1+ Pet

Mutanis

Time: 01:55 (15 rounds)

Level 1+
Script
2 4.4 N/A 13 130
2:10
15

Any Level 2+ Pet

Level 2+
Script
2 4.1 N/A 34 138
2:18
16

Any Level 3+ Pet

OrionAssante

RNG
Level 3+
Script
2 3.4 N/A 40 205
3:25
25+

Any Level 10+ Pet

Cymre

Original video by Cymre

Script thanks to Shaka

Shop
Level 10+
Script
2 3.7 N/A 7 187
3:07
23+

Any Level 1+ Pet

darkcube#1660

Original strategy comes from Sp1naker on Wowhead

Note if using an undead pet the minimum health must be 176.

You can set the minimum health in Rematch to 118 and expected damage type to critter to account for this.

Breed
RNG
Level 1+
Script
2 3.3 N/A 5 190
3:10
23

Any Level 1+ Pet

Remte

Thanks to Wazzak for some log samples.

As usual, if WBL crits, this is over. :(

Don't worry about your own RNG, and as the Idol of Decay is slower it can be swapped out even as it went into Damned.
P/S and P/P imps should work too, but a custom judgment regarding throwing in Immolation again is required around its expiration.

Breed
Level 1+
Script
2 0.0 N/A 1 110
1:50
14

Any Level 3+ Pet

Corgi

This is a reliable strategy posted by Helbrecht of Eldrethalas on the US forums, Drrum on her blog, and Rythian on Wowhead, but the actual origin remains obscured at the moment of publication. Please comment with any details you might share.

I have also done this fight multiple times with Darkflame instead of Early Advantage. See which one you prefer.

Your Level Pet has to be able to take a hit from Swarm of Flies (around 117 points). There is no backline damage during this fight.

Breed
Level 3+
2 0.0 N/A 1 210
3:30
25+

Any Level 1+ Pet

DragonsAfterDark

Level 1+
Script
2 5.0 N/A 4 208
3:28
29-30

Any Level 1+ Pet

Quintette

I found this fairly recent strat on Wowhead https://www.wowhead.com/npc=83837/cymre-brightblade#comments, with thanks to creator daaani. It looks similar to another strat posted here, but this one worked perfectly for me.

NOTE: this only seemed to work with the P/P breed Crab. Had no success with the H/H breed.

Breed
Level 1+
Unobtainable
2 5.0 N/A 2 195
3:15
21

DangerBook#11885

I only tried this twice, it worked 2nd time and first time I jumped the gun and foolishly swapped to Sunfire Kalari while my Beetle was still alive. Considering how well the pets were doing I expect them to win more than half the time.

RNG
2 5.0 N/A 0 180
3:00
20+

Any Level 1+ Pet

Epytropos

Borrowed from one of Xu-Fu's options for An Awfully Big Adventure, modified for lvl pet.

Level 1+
Script
2 1.0 N/A 1 340
5:40
38+

Any Level 6+ Pet

HSTrader#1894

This strategy has worked for me since Broken Isles and never failed. You can do this with one Puddle Terror and 2 lvling pets using Sunlight and Natures Ward but it takes a lot longer to do'

Level 6+
2 0.0 N/A 0 240
4:00
25+

Any Level 1+ Pet

Mutanis

~21 rounds

Breed recommendation Slot 2:
H/S >> S/B >> S/S, P/S

Breed
Level 1+
Script
2 0.0 N/A 0 180
3:00
21

Raindawn

I'd like to start off by saying that the suggested strategy using Puddle Terror is by far the safest strategy out there, i was able to solo it with just Sunlight/Nature's Ward, killing off the back line entirely during the first encounter.
And considering that the pet is very cheap on AH, there's hardly any excuse not to use that strategy.

But for this one, i was basically messing around to bring back a little bit of a challenge, while also playing it safe.
This strategy is not THE strategy by any means, it's just a variation of the known working tropes.

RNG
2 0.0 N/A 0 171
2:51
22+

Buttercup#1759

extremely consistent; can use any dragonkin w/ Scorched Earth & Breath in place of Wild Crimson Hatchling.
2 1.0 N/A 0 145
2:25
16+

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Incl. steps:

1

Cymre Brightblade 83837

Humanoid

Special or not:0Special or not:111111556865911550

Anubisath Idol

Skills: 1 1 1
Breed: Any
Anubisath Idol
This pet can have the following breeds:

Breed Health Power Speed

HH 1725 276 244

Mechanical

Special or not:0Special or not:1121310017912531000

Timeless Mechanical Dragonling

Skills: 1 2 1
Breed: Any
Timeless Mechanical Dragonling
This pet can have the following breeds:

Breed Health Power Speed

PP 1441 346 231

Elemental

Special or not:0Special or not:3211519626215190

Fel Flame

Skills: 2 1 1
Breed: Any
Fel Flame
This pet can have the following breeds:

Breed Health Power Speed

HH 1806 260 244

HP 1627 289 244

HS 1627 260 273

Elemental

211172257061720

Searing Scorchling

Skills: 2 1 1
Breed: Any
Searing Scorchling
This pet can have the following breeds:

Breed Health Power Speed

PB 1384 305 273

Elemental

211128167011280

Spirit of Summer

Skills: 2 1 1
Breed: Any
Spirit of Summer
This pet can have the following breeds:

Breed Health Power Speed

BB 1481 276 276

Substitutes:

1
1

Note: You have selected a substitute pet.
The strategy might fail if you use it with this pet instead of the one the strategy creator intended.

The substitute finder looks for these criteria in relation to the original pet:

Same family

Has the required skills

Has the required stats (if specified)

Ignores specific breed requirements for the main pet, as breeds can be very different for substitutes

1 / 3

I'd like to start off by saying that the suggested strategy using Puddle Terror is by far the safest strategy out there, i was able to solo it with just Sunlight/Nature's Ward, killing off the back line entirely during the first encounter.
And considering that the pet is very cheap on AH, there's hardly any excuse not to use that strategy.

But for this one, i was basically messing around to bring back a little bit of a challenge, while also playing it safe.
This strategy is not THE strategy by any means, it's just a variation of the known working tropes.

Breed

RNG

TCG

Shop

Level 25+

Tricky

Script

Unobtainable

Staff Pick

Patch 10.2

Time: 2:51

Rounds: 22+

Strategy Details

2 Min 51 Sec

22+

N/A

2023-07-08 20:43:34

2023-07-08 18:57:27

4,648

Tamer Details

Idol of Decay, Wishbright Lantern, Gyrexle, the Eternal Mechanic

High XP

Turn 1

Deflection Always use Deflection whenever Idol of Decay's Rot is available.

Anubisath Idol

Timeless Mechanical Dragonling

Fel Flame

Pass

Bring in your Anubisath Idol

Bring in your Timeless Mechanical Dragonling

Bring in your Fel Flame

Swap to your Anubisath Idol

Swap to your Timeless Mechanical Dragonling

Swap to your Fel Flame

Idol of Decay comes in

Wishbright Lantern comes in

Gyrexle, the Eternal Mechanic comes in

An enemy pet comes in

Any standard attack will finish the fight

Turn 2

Sandstorm To minimize the damage from Swarm of Flies.

Anubisath Idol

Timeless Mechanical Dragonling

Fel Flame

Pass

Bring in your Anubisath Idol

Bring in your Timeless Mechanical Dragonling

Bring in your Fel Flame

Swap to your Anubisath Idol

Swap to your Timeless Mechanical Dragonling

Swap to your Fel Flame

Idol of Decay comes in

Wishbright Lantern comes in

Gyrexle, the Eternal Mechanic comes in

An enemy pet comes in

Any standard attack will finish the fight

Turn 3+

Crush Until he is at 250 or less HP, he will cast Dark Rebirth. You can also use Sandstorm to get him down to 200HP, just make sure you don't kill him yet. Wait for the Rebirth effect to disappear on the next round and then finish him off.

Anubisath Idol

Timeless Mechanical Dragonling

Fel Flame

Pass

Bring in your Anubisath Idol

Bring in your Timeless Mechanical Dragonling

Bring in your Fel Flame

Swap to your Anubisath Idol

Swap to your Timeless Mechanical Dragonling

Swap to your Fel Flame

Idol of Decay comes in

Wishbright Lantern comes in

Gyrexle, the Eternal Mechanic comes in

An enemy pet comes in

Any standard attack will finish the fight

Turn 1

Wishbright Lantern Comes in, its first attack will be Illuminate which i countered with a Sandstorm

Anubisath Idol

Timeless Mechanical Dragonling

Fel Flame

Pass

Bring in your Anubisath Idol

Bring in your Timeless Mechanical Dragonling

Bring in your Fel Flame

Swap to your Anubisath Idol

Swap to your Timeless Mechanical Dragonling

Swap to your Fel Flame

Idol of Decay comes in

Wishbright Lantern comes in

Gyrexle, the Eternal Mechanic comes in

An enemy pet comes in

Any standard attack will finish the fight

Turn 2

Bring in Timeless Mechanical Dragonling and cast plenty of Flame Breath

Anubisath Idol

Timeless Mechanical Dragonling

Fel Flame

Pass

Bring in your Anubisath Idol

Bring in your Timeless Mechanical Dragonling

Bring in your Fel Flame

Swap to your Anubisath Idol

Swap to your Timeless Mechanical Dragonling

Swap to your Fel Flame

Idol of Decay comes in

Wishbright Lantern comes in

Gyrexle, the Eternal Mechanic comes in

An enemy pet comes in

Any standard attack will finish the fight

Turn 3+

Time Bomb Make sure it goes off in a turn where Sandstorm is no longer active, and preferably finishing Wishbright Lantern off before he can cast (another) Wish. Ideally you'll stun it when it has a little bit of HP left, so Cymre will waste a turn switching in Gyrexle, while Wishbright slowly burns to death in the back line.

Anubisath Idol

Timeless Mechanical Dragonling

Fel Flame

Pass

Bring in your Anubisath Idol

Bring in your Timeless Mechanical Dragonling

Bring in your Fel Flame

Swap to your Anubisath Idol

Swap to your Timeless Mechanical Dragonling

Swap to your Fel Flame

Idol of Decay comes in

Wishbright Lantern comes in

Gyrexle, the Eternal Mechanic comes in

An enemy pet comes in

Any standard attack will finish the fight

Turn 1

Gyrexle, the Eternal Mechanic Comes in, casting Railgun , cast Flame Breath

Anubisath Idol

Timeless Mechanical Dragonling

Fel Flame

Pass

Bring in your Anubisath Idol

Bring in your Timeless Mechanical Dragonling

Bring in your Fel Flame

Swap to your Anubisath Idol

Swap to your Timeless Mechanical Dragonling

Swap to your Fel Flame

Idol of Decay comes in

Wishbright Lantern comes in

Gyrexle, the Eternal Mechanic comes in

An enemy pet comes in

Any standard attack will finish the fight

Turn 2+

Cast Decoy and switch switch to Fel Flame then cast Conflagrate and keep firing at him while he's trying to Repair. Should be an easy win, nobody dies, but at least it felt like you had to do a little bit for it, haha.

Anubisath Idol

Timeless Mechanical Dragonling

Fel Flame

Pass

Bring in your Anubisath Idol

Bring in your Timeless Mechanical Dragonling

Bring in your Fel Flame

Swap to your Anubisath Idol

Swap to your Timeless Mechanical Dragonling

Swap to your Fel Flame

Idol of Decay comes in

Wishbright Lantern comes in

Gyrexle, the Eternal Mechanic comes in

An enemy pet comes in

Any standard attack will finish the fight

One of the hardest fights in Draenor. It is not suitable to use for leveling a pet as it takes way too long and is unreliable.

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	Creator
			Tags Filter strategies: Strategies to level pets Strategies with a Script No Shop or TCG pets Reset Filters These options reset all other sorting filters.
Any Level 1+ Pet	Remte	In this vast jungle, a low-hanging fruit isn't entirely unexpected. While Immolation is much, much better for backline healing, I've found out Flamethrower adds a little more stability, as dropping a DoT later means it smoothes out the Burn's RNG. You can use Immolation first cast only, but you will risk Gyrexle healing out because Failsafe didn't trigger. I think it has something to do with different backline/weather abilities affecting the Gyrexle's health in a way that causes them to use Repair late/early enough. Managed to succeed with a crit of Rot. (A forfeit is for continued testing.)	Breed Level 1+ Script	2	5.0	N/A	14	118 1:58	14
Any Level 1+ Pet	Mutanis	Time: 01:55 (14-15 rounds) If you don't have Baa'l then try this strategy Inland Croaker breed recommendation: HH > HP > BB > PP/PS	Level 1+ Script	2	4.9	N/A	61	115 1:55	14-15
Any Level 1+ Pet Any Level 1+ Pet	Bumrusher	Script thanks to ZoeyStarwind	Level 1+ Script	2	4.6	N/A	60	300 5:00	36+
Any Level 1+ Pet	Moony	I found this strategy on Wowhead, posted by Kalkoh. Easy and fast. It did not fail yet. Other breeds may work as well, I haven't tested them yet.	Level 1+ Script	2	4.5	N/A	79	110 1:50	14
Any Level 1+ Pet	Mutanis	Time: 01:55 (15 rounds)	Level 1+ Script	2	4.4	N/A	13	130 2:10	15
Any Level 2+ Pet			Level 2+ Script	2	4.1	N/A	34	138 2:18	16
Any Level 3+ Pet	OrionAssante		RNG Level 3+ Script	2	3.4	N/A	40	205 3:25	25+
Any Level 10+ Pet	Cymre	Original video by Cymre Script thanks to Shaka	Shop Level 10+ Script	2	3.7	N/A	7	187 3:07	23+
Any Level 1+ Pet	darkcube#1660	Original strategy comes from Sp1naker on Wowhead Note if using an undead pet the minimum health must be 176. You can set the minimum health in Rematch to 118 and expected damage type to critter to account for this.	Breed RNG Level 1+ Script	2	3.3	N/A	5	190 3:10	23
Any Level 1+ Pet	Remte	Thanks to Wazzak for some log samples. As usual, if WBL crits, this is over. :( Don't worry about your own RNG, and as the Idol of Decay is slower it can be swapped out even as it went into Damned. P/S and P/P imps should work too, but a custom judgment regarding throwing in Immolation again is required around its expiration.	Breed Level 1+ Script	2	0.0	N/A	1	110 1:50	14
Any Level 3+ Pet	Corgi	This is a reliable strategy posted by Helbrecht of Eldrethalas on the US forums, Drrum on her blog, and Rythian on Wowhead, but the actual origin remains obscured at the moment of publication. Please comment with any details you might share. I have also done this fight multiple times with Darkflame instead of Early Advantage. See which one you prefer. Your Level Pet has to be able to take a hit from Swarm of Flies (around 117 points). There is no backline damage during this fight.	Breed Level 3+	2	0.0	N/A	1	210 3:30	25+
Any Level 1+ Pet	DragonsAfterDark		Level 1+ Script	2	5.0	N/A	4	208 3:28	29-30
Any Level 1+ Pet	Quintette	I found this fairly recent strat on Wowhead https://www.wowhead.com/npc=83837/cymre-brightblade#comments, with thanks to creator daaani. It looks similar to another strat posted here, but this one worked perfectly for me. NOTE: this only seemed to work with the P/P breed Crab. Had no success with the H/H breed.	Breed Level 1+ Unobtainable	2	5.0	N/A	2	195 3:15	21
	DangerBook#11885	I only tried this twice, it worked 2nd time and first time I jumped the gun and foolishly swapped to Sunfire Kalari while my Beetle was still alive. Considering how well the pets were doing I expect them to win more than half the time.	RNG	2	5.0	N/A	0	180 3:00	20+
Any Level 1+ Pet	Epytropos	Borrowed from one of Xu-Fu's options for An Awfully Big Adventure, modified for lvl pet.	Level 1+ Script	2	1.0	N/A	1	340 5:40	38+
Any Level 6+ Pet	HSTrader#1894	This strategy has worked for me since Broken Isles and never failed. You can do this with one Puddle Terror and 2 lvling pets using Sunlight and Natures Ward but it takes a lot longer to do'	Level 6+	2	0.0	N/A	0	240 4:00	25+
Any Level 1+ Pet	Mutanis	~21 rounds Breed recommendation Slot 2: H/S >> S/B >> S/S, P/S	Breed Level 1+ Script	2	0.0	N/A	0	180 3:00	21
	Raindawn	I'd like to start off by saying that the suggested strategy using Puddle Terror is by far the safest strategy out there, i was able to solo it with just Sunlight/Nature's Ward, killing off the back line entirely during the first encounter. And considering that the pet is very cheap on AH, there's hardly any excuse not to use that strategy. But for this one, i was basically messing around to bring back a little bit of a challenge, while also playing it safe. This strategy is not THE strategy by any means, it's just a variation of the known working tropes.	RNG	2	0.0	N/A	0	171 2:51	22+
	Buttercup#1759	extremely consistent; can use any dragonkin w/ Scorched Earth & Breath in place of Wild Crimson Hatchling.		2	1.0	N/A	0	145 2:25	16+

	=	Pet levels to 25 with minimal XP lost
		Pet levels to 25 with minimal XP lost

	=	Additional XP above level 25 is lost
		Additional XP above level 25 is lost